Why is a "too fast for conditions ticket" such a hard concept?

"ncasolowork2" (ncasolowork2) 02/10/2014 at 15:10 • Filed to: None

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There are a lot of people who seem to take offense to the concept that if you put your car in a ditch the cop can write you a ticket for driving too fast for conditions. My comment suggesting this as "duh" has a number of recommends. It also has a number of replies from people who feel this somehow is a cash grab or somehow violates their rights.

http://jalopnik.com/you-crashed-yo…

What do you say Oppo?

crowmolly > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:12

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You can put your car in a ditch and still be traveling pretty slow.

Cash grab? Maybe. But you should get something for loss of control. It's a catch all for sure.

thebigbossyboss > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:13

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Cash grab for sure like most traffic tickets. Don`t you think having your car in the ditch is punishment enough?

pdx107 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:15

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Having lost control of a work vehicle before, and went into a snow bank, at less than 5 mph, basically letting it go at idle speed, i would say i wasn't going too fast for conditions in the parking lot.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:15

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Because people don't understand the concept of the road is for everyone, they think if they are on the road, not swerving, and going the speed limit, or near it, that they are fine. Some tickets are bullshit, and some are not. However, they should give out tickets for not having the proper equipment (Heater working, proper tires, not completely worn down, etc)

I have been harping on this for years, if you drive your car in ice/snow without snow tires you are going to have a bad time. If it's the first rain in a while (Pretty common in SoCal where I grew up) all those oils come up and its going to be slick as shit, slow down! People don't think of others' safety, it's like, people will drive in the snow on worn summer tires and not think twice, until they t-bone someone because they couldnt stop for a red light.

It's just something I've noticed living in Northern Virginia, people don't care how fast they go, or who they inconvenience to get there, as long as they get there. They are probably the same type of people who refused to leave during Hurricane Sandy, and then cried for help when they got stuck on their roofs.

Trunk Impaired 318 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:16

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I agree that its a cash grab for the most part due to the fact that some people have a better car and set of driving skills for varying conditions so while too fast might apply to one person, it doesnt to all others. I think a better way of making that money would be to have a police based towing service, I think paying the police $100 to tow you out of a ditch is a lot better than having to pay a $100 ticket and get points for something that wasnt witnessed by an actual officer.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:17

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Have to agree. Car in ditch = too fast for conditions.

If you are going 1 mph, and still ditch your ride, then it was still too fast, and the local municipality should have closed the roads. They have clearly iced over entirely.

Takuro Spirit > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:18

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If I lose control of MY car and end up in the ditch or in an accident, it's MY fault and I was probably going too fast. Ticket me. I dumb.

Now if I am doing the speed limit or under in bad weather and get pulled over because others are going slower than me.... fuck that, that ticket is bullshit. I was fine. No crashy. Never have, hopefully never will.

(the couch don't count)

ddavidn > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:19

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I mean, our cops are mostly generous around here. When I threw my car into a ditch in the rain, the cop didn't write me a ticket. And I was just a kid with an M3 that didn't know how to drive. But if he had written me a ticket, I would have been fine with it. I think the contention is with officers that write you a ticket for safe speeds just because conditions are bad. Slush on the road doesn't mean you should slow down to 5-10mph on a 35mph road.

Brewman15 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:20

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I think the reason a lot of people take issue with it is that it is too subjective.

If speed limit is 55 and you get nabbed doing 65...Boom! ticket. not much arguing you can do there.

However, if speed limit is 55, you're doing 25 and still slide off the road, then it comes down to the opinion of the cop whether or not it was too fast for the conditions. There is no factual way to prove you were going a reasonable speed for the conditions. It ultimately boils down to your opinion vs. the cops, and that's one you'll never win.

Not to mention the cop can write you the ticket despite not being present when you slid off or knowing your actual speed. So, that part is kinda crap. It'd be like getting a parking ticket 2 months after the fact because the cop heard you might have parked too close to a fire hydrant one time.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you. I think it is a good law and does penalize people for reckless driving in poor conditions; I just wish it wasn't so subjective.

ncasolowork2 > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 02/10/2014 at 15:20

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The idea is that people are saying even being careful you can still end up in a ditch... then you weren't being careful enough.

jariten1781 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:21

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I think it depends...In the situation you replied to it's pretty obvious that's a legit ticket. Numerous other cars were capable of traversing that section of the road without wrecking therefor the person who didn't can get a legit 'too fast for the conditions'.

On the other hand, it shouldn't just be blanketly given out any time there's a wreck. Child avoidance maneuvers, rock slides, falling tree branches, etc. can occur where you can end up in a ditch while traveling well within the reasonably safe envelope.

I'm fine with the citation as long as it's used reasonably and not used as a blanket 'police response fee' any time a vehicle is in a single vehicle indecent.

PS9 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:21

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It's a hard concept because people feel like they have a right to drive a vehicle.

Klaus Schmoll > Trunk Impaired 318 02/10/2014 at 15:21

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Well, if your car is Orloved in some ditch or sitting in someone else's trunk, it's self evident that you were going too fast.

ncasolowork2 > Brewman15 02/10/2014 at 15:21

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I'm not talking about a speeding ticket and i don't think any of the replies are either. I'm talking about a ticket for ending up in the snow bank or ditch and the officer who wasn't there then issues you a ticket for driving too fast for conditions.

ncasolowork2 > Trunk Impaired 318 02/10/2014 at 15:22

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See I'm not suggesting that cops write tickets based on radar speeds. I'm suggesting cops write tickets based on the outcome. AKA the car is in the ditch. Hence driver was driving too fast for conditions for their car.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:24

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Well, for example the story that you linked, about the woman who crashed her car into a ditch. How much you want to bet that she didn't have snow tires. Being careful isn't just about how you drive, it's what you are driving. It's all about the preparation. I can't count how many people I've seen drive around with completely fogged up windows, snow still on their car, ice still on their windows, the wrong type of tires for the season. It's like, I drive a shitbox, and make shit money as a lower enlisted in the Army, but I can still afford dedicated snow tires for both of my cars, I wake up early enough to warm up my car and scrap off my ice. And I'm lazy and irresponsible as shit, and I can do it, why can't other people who have to commute with me. What gives them a right to potentially put me in danger for not doing everything they can to make sure they are driving as safe as possible? The main thing I'm getting at with this soap box is that, with the correct preparation, a lot of these accidents wouldn't happen. Yes, accidents do happen, which is why I don't think you should get a too fast for conditions ticket unless you really were (and the state/federal governments should hire an automotive professional to really hammer out what is too unsafe for what conditions), but I think it should be substituted for a driving an unsafe vehicle ticket. I.e., tons of ice/snow, yet you have dont have snow tires? And make it like a 20 dollar ticket, affordable, yet still a wake up slap

Trunk Impaired 318 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:28

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I agree with that to an extent, but you could very easily be going around a corner at 10MPH and slide off into a ditch. Yes you exceeded both your cars and your own driving limits for the conditions but I can almost guarantee that 95% of drivers have no idea how to actually drive properly in the conditions and were never given any form of formal instruction on how to deal with such scenarios. As far as Im concerned if you haven't had to prove that you're competent in driving in adverse conditions you shouldnt be allowed out at all. However, anybody with a drivers license can take their 300HP RWD car with bald tires and no driving aids out and put it in a ditch. I see that as the state taking advantage of drivers who have a license but no skill or knowledge about driving in adverse conditions.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Klaus Schmoll 02/10/2014 at 15:32

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Yes, I agree with you completely, but if you slide off the road, at low speed into a ditch, (happens A LOT where I live in upstate NY) its entirely possible that you were traveling at a reasonable speed for the conditions but simply didnt have the training or knowledge to correct if something went wrong, which I feel should be covered somewhere in the process of getting a license.

Brewman15 > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:32

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What I meant is that under normal conditions there is hard evidence of driving too fast...typically a cop with a radar gun. But the "too fast for conditions" ticket is completely subjective. It is entirely the cops opinion on what too fast is, which is crap when they don't even have to be present to issue it. That's the only quip I have with the law.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:36

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Sorry for the double threading, but I want to try to answer your question more precisely without going off topic:

I think the officer was in this case trying to make an example out of her, saying that, if it's bad out, slow down, or just pull over/don't get in your car. I think the reason people are getting so pissed is because most people view driving a car as a God given right, and if they aren't speeding but happen to crash, then they shouldn't get a ticket. No one thinks "Oh, I shouldn't drive right now." So people get up in arms for what, at a quick glance with no thinking involved seems like some sort of idiot tax. But if you think about it for 5 seconds it makes sense. If it's too dangerous to drive your vehicle, don't drive it. And sometimes, no matter how careful you drive you will still crash, that's when you stay inside.

signintokinjalol > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:38

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What if a tire popped and they crashed into a guard rail? What the tire had good mount of tread pattern before it popped? Is a cop write to right a ticket then?

ncasolowork2 > signintokinjalol 02/10/2014 at 15:39

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In that case it has nothing to do with conditions and we're not even discussing that.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:52

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It is a hard concept because

"It isn't my fault that the road was icy and I went into the ditch. The city/county/state should have plowed and salted it better or installed heating elements so that I don't have to learn the concepts of physics because physics is hard."

/sarcasm

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 15:54

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I think there are certain situations where it's just ludicrous to get a ticket. Like the time I had no choice but to hit the car in front of me (I won't get into it), the other 2 cars involved fled the scene and I got stuck with a ticket for failure to stop on time.

Too fast for conditions? I think sometimes it can be warranted, especially if your car is unsafe at any speed as it is. But I'd have to admit, if I ran my car into the ditch and got a ticket on top of the bill for having it towed out, I would not be happy. I think another problem with these tickets is, they can be horribly inconsistent, Joe can do the same thing as Mark did an hour ago, but depending on the mood of the cop and/or just getting a different cop, that thinks about the incident differently can affect whether they get a ticket or not.

Meatcoma > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 16:01

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If your car is in a ditch because you were driving too fast for conditions, didn't you get what you deserved? Sounds like insult to injury and a cash grab to me.

Biodegradable Wiring Harness > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 16:27

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Well I've had the experience of going about 1mph, probably closer to 0mph, and sliding sideways due to gravity (fortunately not into a ditch), so I'd have say it doesn't seem right unless the cop actually witnessed the incident.

signintokinjalol > ncasolowork2 02/10/2014 at 16:28

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Aren't we talking about "too fast for conditions" ticket??

TwoFortified > Klaus Schmoll 02/10/2014 at 19:23

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"Inside someone's trunk" isn't always fair either (I agree with you about the ditch though). Last winter I rear-ended a lady (giggity) because she cut me off on the freeway and slammed on her brakes because traffic. I slammed on mine. Apparently she had better tires/brakes than I did.

We ended up looking at the damage (non-existant on hers, a bit on my wife's shitbox) and decided mutually to part ways. If we had stuck around and I had been given a ticket for ANYTHING, I would have been pissed off. I think that's why she agreed to part ways though; she knew she cut us off.